From Addiction to Alignment: Debbie’s Unbelievable Journey to Soul Wealth

Prosperity isn’t earned—it’s remembered. 

The Interviewer's audio portion has distortion. The guest is clear and she shares her powerful story and work.

In this episode of Happy Hour for the Spiritually Curious, Dr. Sandra Marie sits down with Debbie Dobbins, global speaker, spiritual wealth mentor, and author of Your Inner Billionaire. Debbie shares her journey from millions made and lost, through addiction, and cancer, to becoming a conduit for abundance and freedom.

We explore:
 ✨ Why prosperity is remembrance, not hustle
 ✨ How forgiveness + gratitude literally rewires the brain
 ✨ Chaos as the natural order (and how it works in your favor)
 ✨ Wise-woman rewiring at midlife: from burnout to wisdom
 ✨ The difference between seeking and becoming a conduit for wealth
 ✨ Laughter, curiosity, and self-compassion as daily medicine

Links

Debbie Dobbins website: www.thedebbiedobbins.com

Chapters

• 1:59 The Journey of Self-Discovery
• 4:00 Navigating Dark Times
• 9:54 Emotions and Creation
• 11:00 The Importance of Humor
• 13:18 Embracing All Parts of Ourselves
• 15:13 The Impact of Programming and Beliefs
• 18:14 The Role of Chaos in Transformation
• 21:09 Understanding Prosperity and Freedom
• 24:44 Permission and Self-Discovery
• 27:55 Releasing Trauma and Stories
• 32:28 The Power of Forgiveness
• 36:32 Beliefs and Curiosity
• 40:20 The Role of Authenticity
• 42:27 Laughter as Medicine
• 46:21 Navigating Spiritual Negotiation
• 50:43 Embracing Feminine Energy
• 53:40 The Shift in Money Paradigms
• 57:13 Empowering Women in Midlife
• 1:00:10 Being a Conduit of Wealth
• 1:02:18 Soul Connections and Authenticity
• 1:04:40 Navigating Polarization
• 1:07:24 Debbie's Work and Offerings

Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:02.702)
Enjoy this Wild Soul gathering production. I'm Dr. Sandra Marie. Pour yourself a really tall glass of spiritual curiosity and join me for the Happy Hour for the Spiritually Curious podcast. In the spirit of happy hour, cheers to some new insights, peace, revitalization, and perhaps an aha moment that may change your life. Welcome to the show, everyone. Today's guest, Debbie Davins, didn't just climb the ladder of success. She lit it on fire.

lost in the ashes and somehow came out laughing, healed and deeply aligned with her soul's wealth. From millions made and lost in a haze of addiction to food stamps, cancer and a $350,000 IRS bill, her path didn't follow a straight line. It wound through loss, surrender and soul remembering, forging wisdom at every turn. She's now a global speaker, spiritual wealth mentor and

Today, she's here to share how prosperity isn't something you earn, it's something you remember. This conversation isn't about bypassing the darkness, it's about alchemizing it into gold. Welcome to the

Thank you, my gosh. I'm going to copy and transcribe that introduction. That's fantastic. I know you did that yourself. So, yay. It made me feel so happy. I'm excited. Yeah. So this is just really just about revealing. It's so important to just know that we have it all right here, right now. And it's all about just letting it be available.

Maybe I know we have a really powerful story and we're absolutely going to get into that. But before we talk about what happened on the outside, I'm going to start with something deeper. You asked everything more than once, but something deeper clearly refused to die. Even when you weren't aware of it yet, something stayed awake. What part of you survived all of that and waited for you to remember her?

Speaker 1 (02:06.442)
It's our soul and we have so many different names for it. I now call it consciousness these days. It truly is that oneness that we all are part of and no one is separate from the consciousness, even though we have our own unique individualized expressions of that consciousness. And I started this spiritual journey. my gosh. Back in probably when I was 18 years old and

when I left home and started going to a place called the Bodhi Tree in Southern California that's no longer there. So this is back in the late 70s and the Bodhi Tree was a metaphysical bookstore, right? Probably one of the very few in the whole United States. So I would go there Saturday mornings with my girlfriend and I just was on this spiritual exploration journey being curious because I wanted to know

what was the golden thread that went through all of spiritual teachings? And literally for probably the, I don't know, five years into my twenties, people would say, well, what religion are you? And I'd say, I'm the Debbie Dobbins religion. Because the fact is, is that if we are curious and we begin to pull these things together, we begin to know that we are as we believe, just like the Bible says. But the fact is, is that science now shows that it's that quantum physics,

The obcer, we are the observer and whatever we observe, that's what we're creating. It's been a lifelong journey, but it began there of just this curiosity. That's why I, I'm going to start crying because I really love your title so much. And I feel your energy already of asking me very intentional questions, because this isn't always the case on a podcast. So I really, I really feel that this has been my destiny. If you will, this has been my gift to come to the world.

and share especially with women that you can be do or have whatever you choose, you just have to choose it and then believe that you can have it.

Speaker 2 (04:07.628)
your story in your darkest spiral addiction, your illness, your isolation, did you ever sense you were being watched over by future version of yourself?

Absolutely. Yes. I actually started writing a book probably last year sometime that I haven't quite finished about my future self and meeting my future self even as a, this is making me cry. Even as a young girl, like the story is more of a fiction, but it's based in what my feelings would be about the experience on this 3D planet that I really believe

And I couldn't be specific about incidences per se, but I really feel this pull from my future self. But I also believe that we are in multiple dimensions at multiple, I mean, we're at every dimension all the time. So it's like, I can have a conversation with a part of me that is either lived before or lived in the future and just have that communication if I'm open to it. Everything is.

where we're open to, because it's our beliefs that keep us shut down from whatever it is that we want to see or believe. And the curiosity is where it comes in that challenging our beliefs, because those are the things that show us what we experience in our 3D world. So it's our stories and our beliefs and our downloads into our physical body. And so if we become curious about how we came to be the way that we are,

then we can be something else which is magical and beautiful and open and receptive and expectant. And unfortunately, many people have been so stuck and ingrained in their beliefs that they've lost that beautiful childlike curiosity to say, why am I believing this? And also, why am I thinking the thoughts? Whose thoughts are those? Because most of the thoughts that all of us think are somebody else's thoughts.

Speaker 1 (06:17.048)
that have been downloaded into us, and then we accept them as our own.

So when you are in your dark times, did that door stay open for you or did sometimes you lose sight of it?

my goodness, so many times I lost sight of it. I mean, this is not a linear trajectory. This is going into the deep dark mire and also just having that light that's pulling you forward, knowing that I'm not, there's many times when I probably had a thought I wanted to check out, I would never do it, but it's just.

Sometimes you just don't want to be here. And I know that many, many people experience that. And at the same time, just knowing that everything, if I remember consciously, everything is working in my favor. I created a, an MP3 based on that because it's so important to recognize that all things are working together for good. It's not some things, it's not part time. It's all things.

are working together for good. And whatever we see is just an observation of our own internal experience. And I know that's really hard for a lot of people because there is things out in the 3D world that we don't agree with, or we'd rather not see, or we think are horrible. But the thing is, is that we either believe all things are working together for good or we don't. It's not an if, then, or. It's always about making this knowingness that

Speaker 1 (07:51.54)
everything and that's why what keeps me going is everything is working in my favor. Even when it looks in the darkest pit perceived as hell, it's not, it's there for a purpose and we can learn from it. We can extract from it. We can grow from it. We can share our experiences, whether they're people. It's just so beautiful. All of these dark appearing dark experiences that I've had.

are just leading me to where I am in this moment.

Well, I would agree, and I would think that most of the people listening to this have had moments that were not touchy-feely, but ended up having very positive outcomes or aha moments with them. It is all working together because it has a purpose. Nothing's random or coincidental, right?

And when we're going through it, just like when I'm going, I had an experience, I was in Playa Del Carmen recently for my 70th birthday and I married myself and there was some turmoil with the women that were there and it was very uncomfortable and it left me in a space that I thought, is this, you know, what is happening here? And it didn't feel good. And yet I always know that there is something bigger.

that's cracking open or unfolding. But when you're going through it, I had a little mini depression for a couple of weeks. When you're going through it, it's challenging, especially when you don't have a history of it. Like I have a precedent in my life that all things work together for good. And when you're in the moment, you kind of forget. We have that leaky memory that the memories fall away. And yet when you get

Speaker 1 (09:38.126)
through it, you can look back and say, yes, that's exactly how it works. And yet there is that opportunity to stay stuck. So if we stay stuck, then we will stay stuck. So it's up to us to make the decision. How do we want to feel in any given moment, even when you're feeling in those dark times? And emotions are so key to the process of creation.

for us as humans. And I think that that's the one key ingredient that I've learned over the past eight years, having been diagnosed with cancer is that it's our physical body that holds those emotions and those downloads from all the lifetime emotions that are actually the electromagnetic magnetic energy that's being propelled out there to create that thing we see in the 3d world. And when we say, this is how I want to feel and then do that feeling thing, because it isn't about this

thinking process, it's about the feeling process, and we can feel however we want right now. I could ask people about an experience and say, how did that feel? People can recreate feelings just sitting in a chair. It's really remarkable how powerful we are to create our own feelings, but that is the key to revealing the inner billionaire is to feel into it, to feel how we want to be.

because that is what we are creating. Our energy, our electromagnetic energy comes directly from that emotional body.

I think that people are really good at having grace for other people, but we're not real good at having grace for ourselves. And especially in these evolving times, the reality is we're going to be stepping in and out of a third dimensional, linear.

Speaker 2 (11:28.702)
life or experience into higher dimensional, more spiral-like moments. So it's all either you're redoing the loop again, because that's your choice until you choose to get out of that loop, or you're willing to step in it and just have the experience and come out of it with a higher level of understanding and growth with it. That being said, you talk a lot about the importance of humor.

What's it like to witness your past self with compassion and still hold her sacred?

that's probably been the lifelong journey for me is to be compassionate for all the parts of me. And I see that with women a lot is they'll say, well, I don't like this bit about me, whatever it is. And it's not just your physical. may be the way you show up in the world. You're not, you're too strong. You're too much. You're not enough. All of that conversation. But when we don't incorporate and then hold.

sacredly every part of us, then we don't completely love ourselves. And so that's been a journey for me because there have been parts of me, especially this is the first time this book, I've ever even publicly, let alone, even with some of my family members discussed that addiction, process, which I don't go into it very deeply, but just the idea that I, I disclose that that was

part of my life was very freeing, but also very challenging. I didn't write this book with the idea that it was going to get published. I just wrote it sort of as a love letter and then it turned into a book. the fact is, is that just really beginning to love every single part of ourselves is so challenging for most people because there's parts of us that we continue to say, I don't like that part of me. And when we just cover that with love, just like we would with a child.

Speaker 1 (13:30.626)
We wouldn't do that to a three year old or a five year old if they do certain things that we don't agree with and say, I don't like that part of you. That would not be something you would say to a child. But yet we say that to ourselves. I don't like that part of me. I don't like it when I'm weak or I don't like it when I speak up in a boardroom or any of those versions of ourselves. Or I didn't like myself because I did have a past in addiction.

it's really important to really love the whole package because that will allow us to move into that space of gratitude for who we are and then really shine. Because when we hold part of us back, we don't give everybody the entire gift. And I think one of the biggest challenges I have with all people, but women especially, is we have so many gifts to give and we're walking into the party with the gift

you know, holding onto the box and we're not going to give it to anybody. And you've got to go to the party. The party is life. Show up at the party and give your gift because we've said that part of me is not okay. I'm a little bit ashamed of that part when the reality is we are who we are. And I am not a big person on negative words. So unapologetically that just isn't on. But the fact is, is I really do like that word because the message to women is

Be unapologetic about who you are. In other words, you never have to apologize for you. You may want to change who you are. You want to improve on something. And that's things you can do going forward. But don't apologize for who you are or who you've been because that's created who you are in this moment. Who would you like to be going forward? Choose that in real time instead of holding yourself back from whatever you did in your past.

I think it goes back to what you talked about earlier with the programming and the baggage we have and the thoughts and beliefs that were never ours to begin with. Did you say that that stuck with you? Like, I feel like that was a part of you in your teenage years. Did that ebb and flow or was that just, that's always part of Debbie's anthem?

Speaker 1 (15:48.428)
I would not look back on my teenage years fondly. And yet that's part of me that I began to love differently than I had in the past because I wasn't looking on it fondly, that that was an unhappy time if I were to be honest about some of the experiences. And yet this whole notion of really beginning to listen to that

All of our beliefs are, yes, they come when we're little, between the age one of eight, they don't, all this research now on that we have our alpha mind going on and we're dumping information into it, creating these beliefs. But yet I think one of the things that's so important that I've learned over the last eight years is it's not just our own physical upbringing on planet earth, it's generational. So that all the generations have been pouring in

all of these beliefs and all of these ideas so that we have absorbed them on so many different levels. And now we have this added bonus of the World Wide Web so that we're constantly getting input and pouring in from all these other places. I think it's, I find it great that I had the opportunity not to be so influenced early in my life by social media and all of these things because I've

created my own sense of who I am, if more people were to really dive deep into their own self and their own authenticity, how beautiful would that be? I mean, I would put all the influencers out of business, number one, but the fact is, is that if we just really look at who we are and love the absolute gobs out of that and just know that every part of us is beautiful and perfect, meaning that we're not perfect beings,

We're perfect expressions of ourself. And when we begin to really understand who we are, it's so easy to be authentic. And yet we're not being that way. We're following somebody else's example. Once again, somebody else's thoughts are in our head, our parents' thoughts, our teachers' thoughts, our spiritual upbringing, all of our ancestors. And that's a lot. That's a lot of people imprinting upon us. So I know the monumental

Speaker 1 (18:13.066)
effort that it is to really be yourself and yet that is always the place that I start with anybody that I teach or coach is that we've got to be authentic. You have to know who you are and then you just expand on that.

Yeah, think authenticity is right up there with curiosity. But you mentioned that transformation has a wicked sense of humor. I loved that when I read that. Looking back, where do you now see grace hiding in chaos?

love the idea of chaos, honestly, because chaos is the natural order of the universe. mean, science has proven that, that chaos is what brings together this beauty that we call the Earth and the planet that we live on. And so I love chaos. Now, I may not love it when I'm particularly going through it, but I really do know that chaos actually brings

the fruition or the alchemy or the transformations that we're looking for, because without that, it's basically the same old, same old that we've always had, and we're gonna get the same results. We're expecting something different, that's called insanity. So I really do love the idea of chaos, because that gets us to a new place. I think one of my most favorite things that I've always done for decades now, is that if a friend comes to me and says,

I got fired from my job. I'm like, my God, that's so exciting because we just don't realize that everything that happens once again is in our favor. And yet it's those things that we perceive as chaos. What am I gonna do? How am gonna feed the kids? Where am I gonna get my next job? I've had so many friends that that happens and I'm clapping for them and they're, no, no, but they listened to me. And subsequently every single one without exception.

Speaker 1 (20:13.144)
has always gone on to either become an entrepreneur, find a better job, have a better experience, do the same thing with a better boss. I mean, it's really quite fascinating because if we just stay open to that expectancy of good, then good shows up.

Yeah, and there's a reason why you were pushed out of that. It probably wasn't really aligning with where you were supposed to be, or it didn't align with your authenticity to begin with. And that's one of the gifts in that opportunity, but certainly you don't see it in the moment, right?

You never see it in the moment. I mean, I've had it happen so many times. I always say that, you know, the universe does for us what we can't do for ourselves because sometimes we know we're supposed to make a decision and we put it off and put it off and put it off because it's a little uncomfortable or a lot uncomfortable. And guess what? It'll happen anyways. So exactly. It's a swift kick. You know, it's all we do.

Yes, I've had many spiritual kicks in the behind myself. What does it mean to now when you say you don't have to become prosperous? You already are.

So many people, I've been teaching abundance for over 30 years. So I used to teach abundance strictly from the mindset perspective. And I have been, as I said, an abundance teacher, but I also am, I'm not an economist, but I know how money works because that's, I've been teaching it. And so what I find very fascinating is most people, and I used to teach, go, this is how you make money. This is how you create wealth, which is really a fun thing. Don't get me wrong. I love it.

Speaker 1 (21:57.138)
And at the same time, what I've learned over all of these decades, if you ask anybody with no exceptions, what is it gonna be if you have money? Like people say, I want to have a Ferrari or I want to have the house in Italy, or I want to travel a lot. And the only way I can do that is to have money because money is attached to all of that. And the fact is, is that I asked this question

What would, how would you feel if these things happen and you drill it down and drill it down and drill it down? And the ultimate answer is always, always, always, always freedom. So if we begin to embody and be freedom, right? Whatever that feels like to any individual, because everybody's sense, I don't mean freedom is different, but that sense of freedom means different things to different people. But if we begin to embody that,

It isn't really about the money anymore. It's about the feeling and we can feel that freedom beginning right here, right now. Nobody has to give us permission, even though I think we've been programmed that way, nobody has to give us permission to feel free. So we don't have to create all of this wealth, even though it's fabulous and I can teach anybody how to do it. can teach women how to double their income in 90 days. All of that's doable, but you can't do any of it.

until you have this shift of ultimate receiving. Because that's where most people in general, and women especially, have their circulatory, it's the law of circulation is about wealth and abundance and love and all of that. But their circulation is broken. It's like taking a hose and crimping it. There's nothing coming out sometimes, but there's nothing coming back in. So their receiving channels are completely blocked.

because I can't, I don't have enough, I don't deserve it, I'm unworthy. There's all these different conversations that are going on. So if we begin to really get clear that we can feel that freedom right here, right now, that then begins to open the portal to whatever it is that we say we desire in our life. And until we begin to open that portal, we're gonna continue to get exactly what we got.

Speaker 1 (24:20.302)
yesterday and the day before in the month before and the year before. So it's not about the money per se, which is money is great. And it's just a energy. It's just a symbol. It's just numbers on a page. It's really beginning to feel what that energy of your inner billionaire really feels like, which is 100 % freedom.

I love that, and you talked about permission. I think one of the big blocks is we don't give ourselves permission. You talked a lot about the external permissions, but to me the bigger block is our own personal permission. I give myself permission. I give myself permission to be happy and give myself permission to...

experiment with the curiosity of what freedom feels like. Do you feel like sometimes people get stuck in that, well, I don't know what it would feel like. Like, they have a hard time getting past that feeling step. Have you experienced that?

I do sometimes in the beginning, if I'm teaching a course or teaching a one-on-one client primarily because nobody's ever told them that before. So it's, it's one of those things that, there's an old, story. I'm not sure it's been disputed by some people on the internet, but the fact is, is that it's about what we have seen or what we perceive and have a knowledge in our own experience from. there was.

a story about the clipper ships coming to a Polynesian Island and the Polynesian people on the island had never seen anything like that. So when the clipper ships came, they couldn't see them because they had no frame of reference. And that's what happens with us in our lives. We can see something right in front of us. I know everybody's had an experience of losing something and having it be, you know, straight in front of you on your desk. But the thing is, is that if we don't have a frame of reference for

Speaker 1 (26:21.58)
things in our life until we can experience them. Sometimes it can be challenging until somebody actually walks you through the process. it's sometimes it's not that often, but some people are so shut down that they have lost really their innate ability to have feelings. They have one feeling and that is they're numb, right? So when they're, when somebody's numb, that just means that they've shut down their feeling channels.

So sometimes we have to activate that a little bit, but once you begin down that road, it's like, my gosh, once again, that's that sense of freedom. my gosh, I have feelings. This is fantastic. I can actually do this on my own because feelings are not based on experience. The feeling can create an experience, but what we've, we've got the whole world a little bit backwards. I often say we needed an owner's manual given to us at the delivery room.

And if we knew that we are creating from within, it's not happening to us, it's happening through us. So if we really acknowledge that it's happening through us, holy cow, that's a really powerful knowingness. And so I used to say years ago, this is the good news and the bad news. Because if you don't like what you see, who's creating it? I'm the writer, I'm the director, I'm the producer, I'm the marketer, I'm everything.

So if I don't like what I see, then I get to look inside. What is it that I'm feeling, thinking, believing, and doing that's creating the experience?

So an intangible example, because I think that this is pretty common, so many people think that their trauma disqualifies them from abundance or spiritual leadership. They're haunted by their past, and they're having a hard time getting past that.

Speaker 1 (28:21.676)
Yeah. And trauma is real. There's no question that trauma is real. And I share in the book, one of the very first stories in the book is, gosh, it's probably been 20 plus years ago that I took my first financial freedom course on a journey to become a spiritual practitioner, subsequently a minister. But I'm sitting in this course.

And everybody's sharing, I've got a $5,000 credit card and I owe my parents $500 and I'm in this class. I got almost a half a million dollar IRS lien that I'm staring down at. And I'm thinking to myself, I'm using this in context of people have trauma. They have trauma and drama. I'm not saying that this is physical trauma, but this is a trauma that I believed in that I said I could sooner cure cancer. having these thoughts.

I could sooner cure cancer than get rid of this IRS lien. And these people, because I'm thinking these people, they don't understand what problems are because this is what we all do. We take our stories and we make them our excuses. I don't care if they're trauma or drama. And this is one of the reasons that people hire me as a coach is because I don't let you rely on your story because the fact is, is our stories keep us stuck. So my story was, this is insurmountable.

Like, is, you people don't understand how big this problem is. And so I decided that I'll say that out loud, which I did. And this beautiful spiritual teacher, she did not say these words, I promise you. She's a lovely, spiritual, loving person. She probably said something like, well, how can you really hold yourself in this light if you're gonna be a spiritual practitioner and you believe that you have the power and God can't take it? I'm like, what I heard was, get over yourself.

That is my advice to everybody. Now, I'm gonna tell you that's probably not best talked about in PTSD and trauma circles, right? Because there is a little bit of loving energy that we need to bring to it. But the fact is, is that most of us aren't suffering from major trauma. There is some trauma in our lives. But when we hold onto our story, our absolute story, we keep ourselves stuck.

Speaker 1 (30:35.928)
There's one other gentleman that I remember that I'm reminded when I share this get over yourself story, because we just, tell our trauma or our stories over and over and over because that makes me special. We are special and unique, but our stories aren't special. He was hit by a truck, probably when he was in his twenties and he supposedly almost died. So he would tell this story over and over and he was holding onto it and resenting it. I got hit by a truck and I almost died. I got hit by a truck and I almost died. And he was in a...

a coach's office one afternoon and the coach said to him, you got hit by a truck. He goes, no, and I almost died. He goes, well, you're sitting right here. I got hit by a truck and I almost died. He goes, you got hit by a truck. And the fact is, is this is what we all do. We are such good storytellers about our lives. And the coach said, you got hit by a truck. Everything else, cause he was so resentful of got the person that hit him.

Everything else that we tell ourselves after the experience is a story. So as long as we hold on to our story and let it keep us stuck, then we will continue to be stuck. So we have to look at the picture and say, what was the exact experience? Because there's plenty of people that have had an experience of being hit by a truck and almost died that don't claim the almost die part. I got hit by a truck. Look, mean, Joe Dispense is a great one.

He got hit on a bicycle and he was laid up and they told him he was never gonna walk again. He refused to accept that diagnosis. And now he teaches other people how to heal themselves with their meditation and their bodies and all of that. So the thing is, is that all of these trauma stories, we all have them. I have plenty of them. But if I lead with that, that's the reason I can't, I won't, I'm not going to.

then the only person that I'm hurting is myself. We have to leave our stories at the door and really begin to see what is my future? What do I wanna create? Who do I wanna be?

Speaker 2 (32:41.574)
I've done a lot of work with Dr. Joe. He does have a remarkable story and the work he does has changed so many people's lives. What role do you think forgiveness, especially self-forgiveness, plays in calling your power back?

Forgiveness, it's actually, I heard this probably a couple of years ago from Vishen Lakshani, who's the founder of Mindvalley. And he loves the brain. I love neurobiology as well, but he loved going to places where they would put sensors and things on your brain. And so they were looking at how to get into these deep alpha, theta, brain wave patterns. And they,

did this experiment when he was there, it was probably a week long thing that they were doing this, regardless, he said, and I know that this is true because now I've studied it, that forgiveness is the most incredible, first of all, oxytocin and dopamine and all the stuff that goes through your body, but it rewires your brain in such a way that you create new neural pathways.

almost like the psychedelic effect of some of these medicines. And it creates that deep, deep, deep meditative state where you can begin to create. And it is one of the most powerful, besides gratitude, those two things, hand in hand. If you practice gratitude, I have two chapters in that book on gratitude, that's how important that is. But forgiveness and gratitude, and it isn't ever

about, we should be forgiving ourselves always, but we often put this thing in the category of, I'm going to forgive somebody, but I can't because I have to hold on to that resentment. And the fact is, forgiveness is never about that other person. I know that this is, it's all the same. We've heard this multiple times. I remember years ago when I heard the first, this quote, it's like taking a poison pill and expecting the other person to die.

Speaker 1 (34:50.69)
because we are poisoning ourselves literally with the toxicity that we give out when we are not forgiving ourselves and we are not forgiving other people. Because actually at the end of the day, it's all about frequency and vibration. That's all it is. And that's where I know that our medicine and our healing is going towards. And in the next five, 10 years, it's going to be remarkable what happens. And yet this whole notion that the frequency

of not forgiving, which is resentment, is so low and so toxic to our bodies. So just the idea that being forgiving of ourselves and others allows us to be healthier, to have, you know, like I said, the chemicals that get released, these love hormones. It's just, it's a magical thing and it's such a simple thing, yet people...

even like gratitude, they don't pay attention to it. I'll do a gratitude list. I'm talking about the gratitude that comes up from your toenails all the way up to your head. I am grateful for everything all the time. I can be doing the dishes and I'll look at something that's on the counter and I go, gosh, that is so, I love that so much. It's so grateful. I have a dishwasher, I have a microwave, I have a carrying.

These things we take so for granted in this Western culture that we live in, and I've lived in third world countries, so it's not as if this is normal for all of the world. If we really begin to practice gratitude and forgiveness on a regular basis, our whole experience and existence on this planet is transformed.

I can't say enough the importance of a gratitude practice, whatever that looks like. I have a gratitude partner. It always helps me to help keep myself accountable if I have someone in the background with me doing that. You've talked a lot about...

Speaker 2 (36:49.378)
The universe doesn't respond to what we want, and it responds to what we believe is possible. I'm just curious for you, what belief took you the longest to truly rewire even after you knew better?

Probably the most overriding belief that I've had for most of my life is that I'm not heard, which I find fascinating because we all have beliefs that we carry around because it was all of our beliefs start when we're little. I was left in charge as the oldest of four children to take care of my brothers and sisters and they don't listen to you. Familiarity breeds contempt. That's my favorite saying.

But the fact is, that I saw that played out so many times in my life, even when I was conscious and aware and didn't really put it together that I was creating that. And it wasn't until probably in this last eight years that I really began to, the feeling thing is the most important ingredient. So it wasn't about out thinking.

having that belief or that thought process, it was about how did I want to feel if I was hurt? Because we all have these conditions and beliefs that keep us stuck. And when we can identify them, what we don't want, we identify how we want to feel. So it was interesting because I've been a public speaker and a trainer going around the world for decades. And I thought that was a really interesting thing that I created for myself.

having a belief that I wasn't heard, so I thought I would just create something else so that was mandatory, if you will, because people pay to see me. it's very fascinating how we can take whatever our challenges are in our life, and then they turn into something really magical, but we can still be holding on to the belief. So I was still holding on to the belief, even though I had created something really tremendous out of it. So it's probably that belief.

Speaker 1 (38:59.36)
That was the one that stayed with me the longest. I'm not completely transformed because I don't believe anybody is. I'm constantly learning. I'm constantly being curious about myself, looking internally. Why do I do whatever? What's creating that? But that one was really a big rock in my whole lifetime. So I just know that... And somebody is listening to this and thinking, you know, I have so many or I have this big one that's keeping me...

stuck where I am, just know that everything is possible when we become curious. That's why I'm going to go back to that word curious. When we become curious about how did we come up with this belief, whose voice is it in our head? How do we show up? When does it show up? When I'm experiencing doing something, that's when it shows up the most. So how do I show up in those experiences in this new

beingness that I choose for my life. It's really fascinating the whole idea of curiosity. It will lead us to wherever we want to go. And the curiosity also is expecting an answer. So when we expect good, right, we expect unexpected income, we expect good, we expect love, we expect appreciation, all of that begins to show up because whatever we focus on expands. And as you said, it's so fascinating to me that everything that I say

is not new. Nothing is new that I say. It's all regurgitated, but it's all ancient wisdom. So if we begin to realize that none of this is new, but it may be the first time that somebody heard it in a way that they now say, I really want to do that. So it's whenever the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I'm not everybody's cup of tea. And I realized that. And yet at the same time,

because I know that there's so many beautiful souls out there practicing and teaching this wealthy information, not wealthy meaning money, but this wealth of wisdom that it is available to everybody. And the good news about internet and social media is you can search anything and find out the answers because there are people that are teaching it without being influencers. They're coming from their heart. So it's about being a heart centered teacher.

Speaker 2 (41:21.774)
Yeah, and that's really core to this podcast, How It Got Started, Happy Hour for the Spiritually Curious, because there's so many different ways to climb the same mountain. What's going to resonate with one person may not resonate with the next.

I love that you just leading me into this. I years ago when I was teaching around the world leadership, would have one. This is a office Depot staples button. That is the most, that's just the elegance of what you just said. And I have it on my desk because sometimes we do, I'm, I'm a meshed in trying to create content or doing something crazy or some really hard project, right? Like, no, that was me because we do, we want to complicate things.

when the true reality is, is that there is a very simple formula that you just shared, that all we have to do is just be joyful, be grateful, forgive everyone, including ourselves, and then say, how do I want to feel to be the person that I know is my authentic self? And then it just shows up. And I think that's the biggest hurdle for most people, even after Rhonda Burns' secret.

is to really, truly believe that we can create our own experience. And it isn't about affirmations and doing visualization. It's about being that energy. It's about truly living in that energy and knowing that you are that vibratory pattern, that frequency, because you can feel, I do this all the time at workshops and seminars.

I walk people through a process, close your eyes. How did you feel when X, Y, or Z happened to you? It's just, you know, you had an accident or you got pulled over by the police or whatever. You can feel that energy in your body and how did you feel or imagine how you would feel if you won the lottery? Right? People can create those feelings. I used to do hypnosis, so I know we can create whatever feeling we want in our bodies, but those are all frequencies. So if we are living in these low vibrational frequency patterns,

Speaker 1 (43:29.81)
all day, every day, we wonder why our lives are, I don't know, SHIT, because it is. So it's really about just deciding how I want to feel. And then I send that energy out and the universe comes back in absolute mathematical precision to give me exactly what I delivered.

Yes. It's so funny. said that yesterday. I was cracking up about something. And someone looked at me and I said, I found that really funny. I love when I crack myself up like that. And that goes back to the feelings of creation, right? So laughter, how powerful is laughter? What emotion and feeling does laughter create?

my gosh, I love laughing. know, what was the book Norman Cousins wrote, Laughter is the Best Medicine or something, where he healed himself from cancer by just watching, this is before YouTube, so he was watching old replays of the Three Stooges and things like that. And yet we just know if you study any kind of biology, these chemicals that are, we have a little pharmacy that we live in, right? Or it's, you we have a skin around it.

But all of these chemicals and hormones are just going through our bodies and they're creating such beautiful symphonies. And one of them is when we laugh and I'm just like you, just will, I'm around, I could be in a group of a networking group and I am cracking myself up and maybe somebody's laughing and maybe they're not, but I'm having a good time. So as long as we're creating that joy and that humor and that fun in our own lives.

We are sending out that magical energy. just say it, we're sprinkling joy everywhere.

Speaker 2 (45:12.046)
There is actually a lot of research on the laughter and the healing. You had mentioned earlier about how you feel like healing and medicine will start looking different in five to 10 years. Honestly, I think it's a lot sooner than that. I mean, there's already research out there about Beethoven's symphony and the different frequencies and how it affects the cancer cells. I mean, you can go on and on and on with that information. I think that we're just moving.

and shifting away maybe from some greed-based type of methodologies. I love that you shared that, but it just felt like interjecting. just see that timeline being a little bit quicker.

I hope you're right. Well, I believe that part of my healing with the cancer was I went to a woman, she called herself a psychic healer, but she gave me sound therapy. so every day, yeah, three days, I mean, three hours every day, morning, noon and night, I was listening to these, these frequencies, right, that were just beautiful. But they there's so many frequency, you get them on YouTube now.

that rewired your brain for your DNA and all kinds of things. And I just know that sound frequency and sound vibration is a healing modality. And the only reason I said it was longer than that is because this is a limitation on my part that I don't know that the medical community is moving along that fast because it's kind of entrenched in money and things like that. thank you for making that declaration because I am now going to claim that for myself that it is going to be sooner.

Because we really do, there's so much beautiful energy that we can tap into with the medical community. And I think AI is going to help that a lot as well.

Speaker 2 (46:54.254)
Oh yeah, we're gonna see drastic changes and I mean, we seem to be in a significant paradigm shift where things are imploding a lot. I've worked in healthcare for a very long time. I think that we're gonna see that shift. But I do want to ask you, with your cancer, did you go through a period where you began to spiritually negotiate it all? Like with life, legacy, soul, anything like that?

No, I don't think that that happened. I have for decades now said to myself and knowing this that I was going to live to be 103. I don't know where that came from. I couldn't even tell you the first time I ever had that knowing this within me. And when they the day that he diagnosed me, this crazy doctor was about to retire. I got in my car and the

only thought that I had was, universe, because when you hear the word cancer, the first thought is death. mean, that just is how we programmed ourselves. But when I got in the car, I said, okay, universe, if I'm supposed to live to 103, what's this all about?

Speaker 1 (48:08.078)
What's happening here? At first, because I'm telling you, there's a little bit of reconciliation that you have to do when you first get diagnosed. And then, because I didn't know what to do. And then it was interesting because he called me several hours later at home and said, I needed a blood transfusion because I was going to die. Not even from the cancer because I was so anemic. So I was immediately into survival mode. Like that was the first thing that happened.

because I knew I had to get to a hospital, had to, need to get blood transfusions and then they did whatever. But as soon as I decided within probably less than a week that this was, this was totally going to be healed. And I didn't know how, honestly, I didn't have health insurance. So when I'm staring at all of these things that they said I needed to do, I was, that freaked me out more than the cancer itself. And, and it just,

Literally, the money showed up, the people showed up, the amazing surgeons showed up. It was really one of those god shots for sure. And yet I knew everything was going to work out. So I didn't ever spend any time bargaining or pleading or any of that. I just knew that, yes, I was living to 103 and we were going to get through this. And my biggest concern was whether or not I was going to be intact because they really

They told me that I was going to have appliances for the rest of my life on your belly. I said, no, that, I mean, I just was adamant. said, that's not going to happen. So we're going to do whatever it needs to happen. And I made my, not made my, I invited my surgeon to step up her game because she did something she was not even knowing that she was capable of. So the overall experience as painful as it was and debilitating as it was, it was really one of the most beautiful times of my life because

I just stripped down to my bare minimum of survival, but I also was so grateful for every experience that was happening in that moment, being broke, being unable to barely get out of bed for all of the little $1 and $5 surveys that I did online to give me a little more money because I didn't have any money. it's really fascinating. I started writing a story about investing, a book recently.

Speaker 1 (50:33.666)
And I was remembering these things that I did that I don't do now because I've moved way past it. But yet it's that humility, I think, was the most important ingredient through the whole process was I'm not better than anybody else. I'm going through this. This is what's happening. And yet I am going to make the absolute most out of who I am and reveal more of me. So I didn't do any bargaining except for really that conversation on the first day.

That's a beautiful story. Thank you for being open with it and sharing that. How did you discern between divine timing and your ego just being impatient? Have you ever just forced something spiritual too soon?

So many times, so many times. I was living in Playa del Carmen part-time last year. And when I first started living there, I was sitting at the ocean and she talks to me and she said, you're here to wake up the feminine on the planet. Okay, I don't know who's behind me, but you're not talking to me because I am the best man for the job.

And I say that because now when I teach about feminine energy and my ideal clients are women, it's because I have been living in that masculine construct, that playbook that says drive, figure it out, get it done, analyze it. There's always a way. I've been living in that dynamic my entire life. If there was a problem, believe me, I could figure out a solution to it because I've done so many different things.

And what I knew at that moment was that because I was forcing so many things, that that feminine part of me, that connection, that communication, that intuition, that flow, that being available to hear my inner whispers was so much more powerful that now I can see the contrast easily, but in the beginning it wasn't very easy because it's a practice.

Speaker 1 (52:45.698)
that we've all learned literally on this planet for 2,000 years, we all got the masculine playbook. This is what success looks like. So you have to, if you want to be successful, you're gonna have to force and push and drive and all of that. There is a place for action like that, but it isn't 100 % of the time. So now I have this beautiful life where I blended both my masculine and my feminine so that I can

I can hear myself when I'm pushing too hard because when I'm pushing too hard, I know it's my ego. Like if it's just that hard, then I have to get up and I have to walk around the block or do something so that I can connect with my feminine again and say, okay, what is it that your ego is pushing you to do here? Because your feminine side, your intuition knows that everything is going to work out. And what is the process that you need to do or be?

to create that. it's a very interesting place that I found myself because literally I was pushing everything. I could fix any problem, literally. I would say I'm the best man for the job. And it's good to have masculine energy. We need both, but they need to be balanced. Mine wasn't. It was 100 % basically masculine energy.

Do you feel the old paradigm around money is dying? That masculine?

100%. Yeah. I believe the whole planet is shifting in that direction. And it's, there's resistance. Remember I talked about that chaos before there's resistance to that. And as a woman, I wish I'd known some of these ideas when I was younger, because being in a C-suite boardroom, you have to be in that masculine playbook or that's what women have perceived. And yet.

Speaker 1 (54:43.822)
I'm so excited to hear, especially women-owned businesses now, talk about intuition. Because we've been talking about intuition in various forms for decades. Cops will say, I have a hunch. Or men will say, I have a gut feeling. That's intuition. But when women say, doesn't feel right for me, if you're in a C-suite boardroom and you're the only woman in it, you are probably going to be ridiculed, diminished, looked down upon.

And those things are changing. They truly are changing. This whole idea of feminine energy being about communication, about connection, about really flowing and not pushing as hard is becoming more and more available to us as women. And also, think it's, just wrote two books in the last couple of weeks or finished them. One is on time bending because we as women have found ourselves

We say this all the time, I don't have enough time, because of course we've tried to do everything. And the fact of the matter is, is that we need to begin to look at where we're leaking our energy for time and begin to take responsibility for who we are and not try to be everything to everybody in the way that we have in the past, because that's not a definition of success, that's a definition for burnout.

Yeah, exactly. It's interesting because intuition is entering the border more and more now, but it seems like the masculine side is starting to own that, which I just found sort of ironic. It's beautiful, I'm glad it's there, but the narrative could shift a little bit for me.

Yeah. Well, know what? They've gotten, have gotten a bad rap too, right? They have been given, this is how you have to behave. This is how it is to be successful. And they haven't been allowed to bring any feminine energy in. I mean, I'm not saying that you want to see a man crying in a boardroom, but the fact of the matter is, is that we are moving in to a time that I'm so excited about. I've been waiting my whole life.

Speaker 1 (56:54.53)
to see the planet doing what it's doing. I really believe that a lot of the chaos that we see is in service to us elevating our consciousness. That's truly what I believe is happening, is that the planet consciousness is elevating to a place where I believe that I'll be alive to see the transformation. And my gosh, I can't even tell you. That's why when I thought I wasn't gonna live to 103, I went.

I have a whole show I'm waiting to watch.

Absolutely, I'm on board with you 100 % with that. So many women in their midlife, especially lately, feel like it's too late. People in their 40s, 50s, 60s are really just waking up and getting ready to go because they are just starting to shed all of these things that you just talked about. What would you say to them?

I think that's mostly the women that I serve are those in that are 47 plus because it's right about 47 that we enter into perimenopause. And there is a wonderful book, a woman, Lisa Marconi, who wrote a book called the menopause brain. I'm in love with that book. Not because I'm way past menopause, but I didn't have any of this because I was doing all the things that she actually suggests not knowing it, but

That is when we go through menopause and when we are in perimenopause, we are completely rewiring our brains. We are the most unique creatures, women, the things that with these XX chromosomes, my gosh, I'm so in love with the idea that I am in a female body, but we are rewiring our brains for wisdom. That's what's happening. We are becoming wise women. So when you're completely rewiring your brain, which we did at puberty, then we did at childbearing years,

Speaker 1 (58:46.402)
And then we do at Menopause, we are rewiring ourselves to be wise women. And all of a sudden it's like the light bulb goes on and we say that playbook that we've been given has not been serving me, whatever it is. And now I want to be who I was meant to be. I want to leave a legacy. want to have something that I leave to this world that it will make an impact.

on other people, not just women or children or men. But the fact is, is that when we do, when we accept it and embrace it, because a lot of women are still pushing it away because it's still such a mystery and the medical community doesn't understand it and all the good stuff. But if we begin to embrace it that way, and every woman that I've ever said this to that's going through it's like, that's a different thought process than I had. We really truly do become

begin to step into our own power and our own wisdom and our own moving this energy on the planet in a way that we never were told that we could. Because this isn't something that they teach in school. And thank you, Lisa, for creating or studying women's brains. I mean, they didn't do any study of our brains for decades because of, you know, whatever. But the fact is, is that she's actually doing that and showing

that this is so magical, this beautiful body that women live in. I love being in this body so much. I can't even tell you.

What's interesting to me, you should talk about that, Debbie, is, you know, with the ancients and ancient times, that was all recognized and revered. It really sort of regressed, and now we're getting back on track. You describe wealth now as something that moves through you, not to you. What does Debbie the Conduit feel like versus Debbie the Seeker?

Speaker 1 (01:00:47.486)
It's one of those places that has been challenging to embrace because if we embrace the idea that we're a conduit, that is a lot of power. And I would say that my biggest challenge, and I hear that from other women, is that once you know that you are the power that is very creative of everything in your life, and it's just

It's powerful. It's almost too powerful to hold sometimes. So when we're seeking, it feels a little safer because having that much power, what are they, the phrase says, with great power comes great responsibility. So having that humble responsibility, it isn't about egoic responsibility. It isn't about, I'm so powerful responsibility.

And it isn't about seeking, which is safe, because then I'm just looking to understand the power without actually embodying it. That is the place that I'm living in right now is knowing that that power is so enormous and it has a lot of responsibility that goes with it. So that I have to, or I choose to be humble about it because I

believe that if you're not humble in this world having that kind of power, then it does look like egotistical or narcissistic or any of the versions that people might want to label somebody as. believe me, I've been labeled. But the fact is, is that that power also is about not accepting somebody else's limiting belief about myself.

So Debbie, when you leave the stage, when the interview ends, you're just with yourself. What's the one thing you hope people actually felt from you? Not what they learned or bought or, but really what their soul recognized?

Speaker 1 (01:02:54.926)
I love the word monomistay. It's the God in me recognizes the God in you. So that is what I really believe that when I'm so clearly with somebody, because I'm one of those people that I love being in a room with somebody and just having that person be the only one in the room and that they give me that same response back, because we are so distracted all of the time. But that if you can

be with somebody and they feel like they are actually talking to their own soul. And I know that I'm talking to my soul and they're talking to me. That is the most fabulous energy that I could ever leave another person with. And I do that a lot. I meet people all the time and we have that instant soul connection because I'm open and available to it. Like if I was closed down, that wouldn't happen. But it's so interesting that when we get into that

that energy vortex of just being with each other in pure loving energy, soul connection, heart connection, time stands still. There is no time and space. And it's one of my favorite things to do with people, especially when I just meet them. Because I've had women say to me more often than not, because I love deep conversations much like what we're having here, they'll say, you know, I don't.

I don't have anybody that I talk to like this. Like, we're just honest. We're just saying things that are so important and true. And I say, yes, because that's, for me, we have so much fluff going on in the world that's irrelevant to the true essence of who we are. But when we connect on that soul level, it's truly magical. That is just, if I leave another person and they left with that same soul connection,

That makes my heart just sing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51.776)
I love that, I love the mirroring. mean, right now things are just feeling more and more polarized, like that part of the game is escalating before it disintegrates, I think. What would you say to folks who don't know how to navigate that in a soul way?

I think that we all have, we're playing a particular role here. So some people are not, they're not gonna be on that path per se. There's a story that I like to tell, it's called the bus stop conversation. So I use this metaphor that we all, when we come down to this 3D planet, we all meet at the bus stop, wherever it is before we come into this dimension. And everybody at the bus stop says, well, I wanna go down.

and learn about forgiveness or I want to, you know, release some trauma or whatever it is. And, and so they ask at the bus stop who wants to go down and help and participate with me. And so people will raise their hands. So we've all had people come into our lives that my father happened to be one of those people that we had a very estranged relationship, lots of stuff that I don't want to go into right here. But the fact is, is that I was with this psychic healer and he showed up and

He said, you know what, nobody would have loved you this much to come to this planet to do the things that I did to get you to where you needed to be. In other words, all these challenges and all these resentments and all these things that happened. And I love that idea about the bus stop conversation because we are going to have people come into our lives that agreed to come to meet us, whether it's for a minute or a lifetime, challenge us, push our buttons, our triggers, be our love bombs.

all of that stuff. So there's going to be people that are on here that are hearing this that will never, this will bounce off of them. They'll just not resonate with it. But there's other people that are on a soul journey that just want to know that they're here for a reason and a purpose. And if you also extrapolate that and say that every single person that, because I say relationships are grist for the spiritual meal.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10.114)
So that if we are just refining ourselves with all of these relationships and we recognize that we are looking into the eyes of God with every single person that we meet, our whole view of the world changes. But when we say that that person is not whatever, I don't agree with them, we're separate, then we are taking ourselves out from the whole. We're the separate because everybody is part of the whole and they all have a particular role. They're little puzzle pieces.

that make up this whole beautiful thing called consciousness.

I love it and that goes back to the simplicity of everything again. So thank you for sharing that. I appreciate you being so open, especially with that relationship with your father. So talk a little bit about your work. Are the listeners interested in your work? What does it look like? How do they connect?

For these podcasts that I'm doing this month, I'm letting people have my book for free if they go to my website, thedebbydobbins.com. So there's a little link they can click on and get that. And there's a couple of other fun things in that package. on that website, you can connect with me for coaching if that's what's floating your boat. I've got my inner billionaire circle on there. So basically just go to my website, thedebbydobbins.com.

lots of freebies and goodies and fun stuff. Because at the end of the day, my feeling is I felt this way when I went to a thing called LifeSpring years ago when I was in my twenties. And that's where I first heard the saying that says, are creating everything in your life. And I thought, what is that person talking about? Because I resonated with it so much. The whole audience was like, a gasp. But I also heard that they wanted to charge a lot of money for that program.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57.613)
And I thought, why isn't this stuff free? There is a lot of free stuff out there, don't get me wrong. But I don't, I mean, yes, I charge for my services if you're going to be a VIP book coaching client, but I really love to give away free things because I really believe that this conversation that we're having, this idea of consciousness is available to everybody. And so even that, even my book and the next two books that are coming out are just sharing about inner wisdom, about

practices that we can all do that will take us to that place of understanding ourselves, becoming more curious about who we are, and really just being these authentic beings that we've covered up with so much stuff. It's such a crime that we've covered ourselves with so much junk. And I've done it, so I understand it. And yet, there's so much beauty inside every single one of us. And if we just allow that to come out,

then we play a bigger role in this whole thing called the universe.

Love it. Any last thoughts for the listeners out there?

just the fact that wake up every morning. This is I do this all day. It's my new mantra because I created this video. I'm not video the audio about six months ago. Everything is working in my favor. If you just keep reminding yourself, it's not an affirmation. I don't want to. I'm not a big affirmation person. That's like writing 100 times on the blackboard. I won't pull Sally's pigtails anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34.476)
It's about really saying and reminding yourself, my gosh, everything's working in my favor. So the traffic that's in front of me, it's working in my favor. The Legos that I stepped on as soon as I got out of bed from the kids, it's working in my favor. The coffee that's now spilled all over the counter, it's working in my favor. Because if we begin to remind ourselves about that, these little things, then the bigger things fall in so easily. Because if we're not practiced at that,

then the big things will take us off of our balance, put us on our heels. And the fact is, is that the longer we take ourselves out of our energy of that high vibration, the more likely we are to see things that we don't want to see in our lives. So that's my biggest advice, if you will, to people is just say that when you get up in the morning and just remind yourself throughout the day, everything's working in my favor. Everything's working in my favor because your whole day will begin to shift.

I think that that's great words to lead people with. And I do want to thank you for this beautiful conversation today. Thank you for bringing your voice, your fire, your full self into the conversation. You didn't honestly just tell us how to find our inner billionaire. You shared a little bit about for you what it was to walk through hell, light a match, come back.

And you alchemized it into gold for not just yourself but for the collective. And I think that it's important for the listeners out there that their story may be as intense, maybe not as intense. It may be quiet and more hidden. But Debbie, what you reminded us today is anything is possible.

and that any moment is a starting point and your starting point is sacred, you don't have to become worthy because you already are.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29.3)
Yes, yes, you're worthy because you exist.

Thank you so much for being on the show Debbie. Until next time, stay curious, stay sovereign, and don't forget, transformation has a wicked sense of humor. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Wild Soul Gathering's Happy Hour for the Spiritually Curious. To learn more about our guests, please go to our website, WildSoulsGathering.com. We're very eager to hear from our listeners what you thought of the episode, topics you might like us to cover in the future, your thoughts on spirituality, questions

you may have, please feel free to send us an email at WildSoulsGathering at gmail.com. This is your host Dr. Sandra Marie sending each of you peace and love. Until we meet again, embrace your Wild Soul.